DISQUS

pbrad21 · 2 months ago

love the connection to LOST. you had me looking at your post with that.

"Increasingly those outside of our doors will feel less and less compelled to ever enter our doors." I believe we are already there, have been there, and will increasingly feel this effect within the United States.

love your point on incarnation.

Greg Arthur · 2 months ago

Incarnation is such a central reality to everything it means to be the church and yet we seem to fight it at every turn. It as if we want to live saying, "Humility and incarnation were fine for Jesus, but really it is too hard for me."

cedricsnowbarger · 1 month ago

Our church is being forced to cut expenses. This affects our missional endeavors. We have tried to cut basic expenses.
But our denomination (Church of the Nazarene) still expects their budgets to be paid. And guess what happens when the budgets don't get paid? The pastor is blackballed because it's "all his fault". I think we need to tell our ecclesiastical thugs in Lenexa that they are getting their income cut too because we will not succumb to their annual shakedown.
Our board is really disgusted with headquarters always expecting to get paid when we can hardly pay our pastor.

Phule77 · 1 month ago

Missional doesn't mean you're spending a fair chunk to send people to other countries.

It means that your focus, as a body of believers, is outside of what happens in a specific building on a specific day at a specific time, and rather becomes a lifestyle that is practiced/inhabited all of the time.

The Missional church lives and breaths Christ.

mrdcbrush · 1 month ago

A few thoughts...

At TFC we don't have a building. Never have, and probably never will. Property management and the emotions that are attached to them are the number one reason why churches will fail. It's a lot harder to sell the church building (because what is the bride of Christ?) when it was built with the blood, sweat, and tithe of grandpa John... The mission of God is now, and has ever been found at work in the hearts of men.

Churches could be doing a lot better things than worrying about multi-thousand dollar mortgages, and that has absolutely nothing to do with denominational structures. God's work will continue regardless, but the thing cutting the hamstring of most churches isn't their annual Nazarene budget, it's their desire to remain within their man-made fortresses. This model will probably work for another 10 or 15 years at the most, but I venture to say any new churches planted now with this old model in mind will fail. Church buildings are monuments to the achievement of MEN, not necessarily the achievement of GOD.

If you can't pay your pators or your budgets then maybe it's time to let go of a dying paradigm. It's not easy to sell church buildings, but if you have one make it a place of incarnational ministry. Make sure it is open at least 8 hours a day 7 days a week. You may have problems with the old saints though, because you might have to get rid of the pews that aunt Marge paid for, and the carpets might get dingy and worn. But, I guess we shouldn't worry about that if we require everyone to clean up and do what they are supposed to do to be in God's presence. Get your crap together everyone, then you'll be ready to come on our turf to meet Jesus...

Phule77 · 1 month ago

Everybody wants to create the new Tabernacle in their church, a place that is holy (without being loving) where the fierceness of God might just strike down sinners.

But God has called the body of believers (and livers, and teachers) to actually be a sanctuary that welcomes the sick and the needy and brings healing and life wherever they are, whatever day of the week it is.

frjohnwhiteford · 1 month ago

In the early Church, people were evangelized outside of the Church, and only when they were prepared to make a commitment did they ever set foot inside the Church, and then, only in the Narthex as catechumens, which allowed them to hear all of the services except for the eucharist portions of the liturgy... at which point they were dismissed. Only when they were baptized were they allowed to stand with the faithful in the nave of the Church, and stay for the whole service.

The whole idea of catering your services for evangelism is contrary to the practice of the early Church, or any other point in the history of Christendom prior to the revivalists of the 19th century.

klmiller · 1 week ago

I find this particular conversation rather funny.... :-)

The "incarnation" is about God entering into history as a man and yet at the same time fully divine. Why? So that He might usher in His Kingdom (which HE did do) and so that He could take our place on the Cross, taking all of the wrath of God pertaining to sin, so that we don't have to.

Through Christ Jesus we are now enabled to do what was impossible for Israel to do under the Old Covenant. His precious blood enables all men to not only be reconciled to God, but to be called Children of God and the Light. (cf. Jn. 1:13; Eph. 5:1-9)

The idea that we can somehow be "incarnation-al" is a bit confusing. For one we are not, nor can we transcend anything--we are from below, He is from above. The incarnation was a one time event. We will and can never be God in the flesh, which is the definition of the word.

If you mean that we must break the bonds of tradition regarding the "Church" as we see it today...I am not sure I understand your thinking on this.

For one, man did not establish the Church, but Christ Jesus (God) did. As a matter of fact this is where Jesus spent a great deal of his time, at least on days when the synagogue was open. Besides the fact that the apostles went to great efforts to continue establishing the Church of Christ Jesus.

Does this mean we are not to proclaim the Gospel outside the walls of the building (i.e. the church) in which we meet Sunday after Sunday (including Wed. night Bible study/prayer meetings; or whenever you may hold them)--by no means. Our lives are to be a sweet smelling aroma unto the Lord God just as Jesus' was on the cross. We are to be holy, because He is holy and therefore we are called to not only be imitators of God as dear children (cf. 1 Cor. 11:1; Eph. 5:1; 1Thess. 1:6; [also] 1 Pet. 4: 1-2).

Really when you look at the whole of the incarnation and what it means to be apart of the Church (i.e. the Body of Christ) it plays out like this. The Son gave up his glory in heaven beside the Father, so that He might make an atonement for our sin and ransom us from the grave. In doing so, we have been abled by the "will" of God to become co-heirs with Christ as children of the Father and brothers/sisters to our Lord God Jesus Christ. Our responsibility as Christians is to preach the forgiveness of sins in Him alone.

How are we do to this, by being willing "vessels" for the Word of God--for it is through the Word by which mankind is saved in the knowledge of Him who loves us and willingly died for us while we were still in our sins and enemies of Him.

This does not nullify the Church, but it does require us to live Holy lives (personal, social) by maintaining the vertical relationship we are enabled to fulfill the horizontal ones.

Kris Miller
'a fellow brother in Christ'