Emergent Nazarenes - Latest Comments in The Changing Demographics of Religion

Re: The Changing Demographics of Religion

jesus reyes — Sat, 09 May 2009 14:31:21 -0000

I noticed Asia Times as a news source listed on your blog. One of the greats, Pepe Escobar, regularly publishes on Asia Times. He has a piece there, currently, that goes a long ways in explaining the reality of foreign affairs. All of his pieces are excellent and the old ones are worth looking up.

One of the hallmarks of POMO is to place the narrative in context. To contextualize and analogize the gospel 2000 years later, the USA is Rome, and Jesus is Iraqi, Pashtun, Palestinian, South Lebanese Shia and Baluchi. Sometimes it's hard for me to figure out what Jesus and Paul had in common overall, but specifically, they were both virulently anti empire.

As a method of historiography, "follow the money" will get you in the game and will give you a much clearer understanding of Islamic Fundamentalism.

Videos such as this are designed to throw dust in the eyes of the Romans and keep them out of the game. Romans are basically decent people and too much information leads them to justice, mercy and compassion. It's best to keep them fearful and hateful.

Re: The Changing Demographics of Religion

Greg Arthur — Sat, 09 May 2009 10:24:56 -0000

Monte,

Great to hear from you again. I have been looking at that book, this may be the impetus I need to pick it up and read it.

The only take away from this video is fear. There is no call to action, no moments of hope, and no attempt at anything other than scaring whoever is watching it. Too much of what we believe about the Muslim world is exactly that, stories told to scare us.

Re: The Changing Demographics of Religion

jesus reyes — Fri, 08 May 2009 18:06:10 -0000

Excellent, Thanks. I hadn't seen this poll/study. Also, great clip from Counterpunch, I missed that too. I noticed that the author, Wajahat Ali, is a Pakistani. Tariq Ali is another Pakistani that brings incredible perspective to bear. It really is all about foreign policy.

As a moral equivocator, I've always been convinced that after the failure of Arab nationalism, socialism, and Marxism, Islamic fundamentalism exists because it works. Iran was a spectacular success. I've always been convinced that while Savak was mostly secular and criminal, at some level they were Shia. We didn't have any problem bringing those people into the country.

Re: The Changing Demographics of Religion

Monte Asbury — Fri, 08 May 2009 16:50:13 -0000

Actually, the only real data we have about what Muslims worldwide believe is the massive Gallup survey of the Muslim world. It was edited into book form, entitled Who Speaks for Islam: What a Billion Muslims Really Think; comments on it are readily available on the web. I posted a few of my own at What a Billion Muslims Really Think."

It is full of surprises, of course. For instance: Muslims as a group are much less likely to believe violence against civilians is ever justified than are Christians as a group.

And it is truly startling to realize that all the information we've had to this point - from which we've made foreign policy, church policy, security policy - is completely anecdotal. We just don't know much!

Re: The Changing Demographics of Religion

Gregory Greene — Fri, 08 May 2009 13:40:47 -0000

So how many gods are there really? Elohim, Yahweh, Allah, perhaps many more? The word from my Muslim friends is that God is one and Mohammed is his prophet. They acknowledge Jews and Christians as People of the Book precisely because we all worship the same God. The fact that we do so differently and guided by teachers who fight for turf and can't get along, in my understanding, shouldn't prevent an omnipotent God from reaching out to us all through the preachers that are available, though they be far from perfect.

If you want more Christians, get your people to have more children. That's the only thing that changes demographics. Muslims are having lots of children, that's why there are always more and more of them. Also their mission work is more effective and better adapted to the needs of the target population.

Re: The Changing Demographics of Religion

Greg Arthur — Fri, 08 May 2009 13:30:30 -0000

Steve, the post was really a reaction to the video, which I didn't like at all. I have had so many people email me that link and bring it up with fear in their voices that I just wanted to respond.

I agree with your thought that a return to minority status would do wonders for the church in Western Culture. Christianity spreads much faster when it is not in a position of power.

Re: The Changing Demographics of Religion

Steve Carlson — Fri, 08 May 2009 11:13:14 -0000

I think that your commentary has a lot of truth, but I am a bit puzzled why you chose this video to set the tone. I heard and sensed fear all through the video. The scriptures are replete with teaching of who to fear and who not to fear. Deut. 10:12, Psalm 34:9, Luke 12:5 as examples.

Given the growth rate and intensity of Christians before Christianity became the official religion, I wonder if a shift in culture that simulates those conditions, might not actually be a good thing for Christianity today. What would we really be like under extreme persecution? How effective would we be in living out Christ's command to love and serve our neighbors? What would it be like to be fully dependent on the Holy Spirit?

Re: The Changing Demographics of Religion

Tim Sheets — Thu, 07 May 2009 22:22:50 -0000

Great response and reminder of God's dying for ALL people and ALL people are made in His image and likeness. Appreciate the thoughts.

Re: The Changing Demographics of Religion

Nazbollah Insurgent — Thu, 07 May 2009 20:28:34 -0000

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Re: The Changing Demographics of Religion

Greg Arthur — Thu, 07 May 2009 09:33:51 -0000

Jesus,

Thanks for the investigation into the video. It was obviously very slanted and has many people working themselves into a lather. I received an email with this link from a number of people and they were all essentially mourning the end of civilization.

Thanks for adding some work and balance into a subject that obviously I was trying to show is decidely out of balance.

Re: The Changing Demographics of Religion

Phule77 — Thu, 07 May 2009 09:10:42 -0000

Amen, brother.

Re: The Changing Demographics of Religion

jesus reyes — Thu, 07 May 2009 08:51:55 -0000

It is very difficult for me to see how this is not Islamaphobic hate/fear mongering, and especially given the manner in which the video is being used across the net, although, your commentary is not that.

What amazes me is that there are no credits or sources in this unsigned/uncredited video, and that you cannot find the producer anywhere on the net. The fact that these statistics are accepted without question is verification, I guess, that the Age of Reason is dead.

My immediate thought was that it was produced by MEMRI, it's quite similar to the propaganda they produce, but MEMRI usually takes credit. Perhaps so many people are on to MEMRI these days, they no longer take credit. The whole thing smells strongly of Bernard Lewis and those of his ilk

Snopes has a piece on it

http://www.snopes.com/polit...

This is the only analysis of the statistics that I have found, and the vid didn’t come out so well.

http://streetprophets.com/s...

Phillip Jenkins book, God’s Continent does a much better job of analyzing a very complex subject. The truth is never as simplistic as this video.

Most of the Muslims in America are resettled Palestinians. The USA pays for Israel's ethnic cleansing of these Palestinians and then they end up in the USA (plus more Iraqis are on the way). Sounds like poetic justice to me.

If fundamentalist Christians weren’t able to turn the US into a theocracy over the last 30 years, then fundamentalist Islam has no chance, at fifty million or even 100 million, and US Muslims are not fundamentalist

I have no desire to adopt Islam any more than Judaism or Billy Graham's Christianity, but no Muslim has ever done me harm. Nor has any Hispanic.

On the other hand, George W. Bush and Dick Cheney--both blue-eyed Protestants from families that have been here many generations--nearly destroyed my nation between 2000 and 2008

You are not going to convert these Muslims and they are not going to convert you.

When we focus on what we believe, pain, division, hatred and violence always follow. When we focus on what we love, on our most cherished values, just the opposite happens. We find that we love the same things. We want to belong, we want to be loved. We want peace, joy, wisdom, wonder, compassion and justice to prevail in the world. This is the main thing Jesus knew and his one teaching consistently ignored.

Re: The Changing Demographics of Religion

Greg Arthur — Wed, 06 May 2009 20:51:47 -0000

Gregory,

Thanks for stopping by and adding your thoughts to the conversation. You are very welcome here. I would contend, however with the quote you offer. While there may be little Christians can do to change the reality of a billion Muslims in the world the god of Islam is completely incompatible with the God of Christianity.

There are major differences that cannot be reconciled.

That doesn't mean, however, that we shouldn't seek to live peacefully with Muslims.

Re: The Changing Demographics of Religion

pRobb — Wed, 06 May 2009 17:21:46 -0000

I first have to say that I truly appreciate the focus on the Kingdom of God is victorious and that it is the Kingdom of God that we need to return to as our focus. To often I wonder if our concern in America is less about expanding the Kingdom of God and more expanding our comfortable beliefs.

Re: The Changing Demographics of Religion

Gregory Greene — Wed, 06 May 2009 16:31:18 -0000

How refreshing to read something other than rabid hate for Muslims. Some of my best friends over the years have been Muslims, and I can tell you they're great people.

I've written down my thoughts on these and other things in a free e-book, Walkabout: The History of a Brief Century. There's a statement there that I'd like to quote by way of a follow-up on your thoughts on Muslims: "But there’s a fact that you should be aware of: Islam is God’s word for well over a billion people, and no matter how enamored you are with your own version, there’s positively nothing you or your Christian ministers can do to change that fact. So if you’re the least bit interested in God’s perspective on communicating with all those people, you’d be well advised to keep an open mind regarding their faith and their traditions.”

Thanks for the positive post!