Emergent Nazarenes - Latest Comments in The Church of the Nazarene Will End in the Next 15 Years

Re: The Church of the Nazarene Will End in the Next 15 Years

Rebecca Wright — Sun, 05 Jul 2009 23:11:20 -0000

To David Brush:
As I read your post I had to conclude that you surely have a deficient understanding of the Church of the Nazarene as it is. The governance
of the Church of the Nazarene, this body of believers belonging to God, is entrusted by His guidance to the great men and women, not only of the USA, but of many other countries around the world, who are faithful to its doctrine, who are men and women of prayer and supplication, of sacrificial living, having documented lives of faith, who are hardworking servants of the Master as they follow His will to continue to extend the message the Church of the Nazarene brings to people of the USA and the world who have not yet heard the message of holiness. The govern- mental structure of the Church of the Nazarene is second to none, encouraging local congregations to express holiness living by extending ourselves to our neighborhoods as well as to mission fields around the globe, while providing denominational guidance to these local congregations that certifies their sermons, teaching, and activities
as being in agreement with the standards set forth in our Manual.
I do not doubt your sincerity or your goodwill in your efforts to publicize the Emergent Church movement's concept of what is "wrong" with the Church of the Nazarene and other denominations, but I believe you need a much more indepth knowledge and understanding of all that this denomination is doing for God and the people He so longs to reach, to elevate, to save from sin and its terrible repercussions. I am always just amazed at all that our wonderful denomination is doing for His sake all over the world. I've been a Nazarene all of my 61 years, and I am still learning that, with all my knowledge, I still know next to nothing when it comes to all the many ministries that Nazarenes extend to the people of our world.
Shock waves? Hardly. The Church of the Nazarene is at the forefront of change as it becomes necessary in the work of bringing the Gospel
of Jesus Christ, His power to save, sanctify, heal, and empower--His great power to change lives--to those who need Him. I respectfully suggest that you and others involved in the Emergent Church movement seek to follow the leading of the Lord, and, if that path is incompatible with the doctrines, practices, and government of the Church of the Nazarene or any other denomination, that you form your own body(ies) of worship, thus separating yourselves from denominations that you feel are mistaken in their work of Jesus, our Lord. Therefore, you will not need to expend your energies to "correct" all that is "wrong" with the various denominations from which you draw, rather you will be freed to give yourselves wholeheartedly to the work to which you believe you have been called. If it is truly of God, then it will be blessed by Him, if not, then you will know at some point in your efforts that He is not in it.

Re: The Church of the Nazarene Will End in the Next 15 Years

seekerbillycox — Fri, 27 Feb 2009 00:32:06 -0000

"It will need to follow more of a decentralized 'Starfish' model of ministry."

I am reading the book "The Starfish and the Spider" right now. I'm not far enough into the book to know whether the authors think that a centralized organization can of it's own will decide to become decentralized. My gut tells me that a centralized organization decentralizes only if its survival instinct leads it there, and even then not with the consensus of all stakeholders.

Re: The Church of the Nazarene Will End in the Next 15 Years

mrdcbrush — Sat, 21 Feb 2009 22:45:21 -0000

My thought there being that we don't really 'guide' others into developing their own contextual leadership, we impose our western model and often stick around far too long. We should be providing a framework for growth of leaders, not assuming we are/need to be the leaders.

I hope that clarifies a bit.

Re: The Church of the Nazarene Will End in the Next 15 Years

Monte Asbury — Fri, 20 Feb 2009 18:11:49 -0000

"We must humble ourselves, and assume the role of guide" - I think those two are mutually exclusive.

Re: The Church of the Nazarene Will End in the Next 15 Years

Jennifer — Fri, 13 Feb 2009 18:54:42 -0000

I hope I can be part of the solution. I've added you to me reader and will visit with each new post.

Re: The Church of the Nazarene Will End in the Next 15 Years

Pastor Steven — Fri, 13 Feb 2009 09:47:19 -0000

Grant,

I whole heartily agree, I think we need to disciple our new member as followers of Christ who part of the CotN. I think that you are right-on when you encourage baptism as a precursor to membership. I can not believe we except unbaptized people as members of the CotN. I think that baptism is much more important then membership. Even though the general CotN pushes for membership more, baptism is the means of grace by which we become members of the visible Body of Christ. That's why my teenage kids are baptized but have not yet join the CotN.

Peace,

Steven

Re: The Church of the Nazarene Will End in the Next 15 Years

Grant — Thu, 12 Feb 2009 23:14:06 -0000

Here is where I appreciate the freedom I have experienced in my pastoral ministry to shape what it means to be "Nazarene" in my context. I think the "Christian - Holiness - Missional" core values give pastors a lot of room to define these values in their local context. For example, I spend a lot more time talking about what it means to be "Christian" in my membership classes than what it means to be "Nazarene." My hope is that the folks who join our church will identify themselves primarily as Christians. Christians who agree to partner with our local body of believers for mission in our community that happens to be affiliated with the Church of the Nazarene (rather than folks who identify themselves as Nazarene who happen to be Christian.) Encouraging baptism as a precursor to church membership helps keep this perspective.

I agree that change is coming from the bottom up. And again, this is just my experience, but I don't experience resistance to this change from the "up". Rather, I've always been encouraged by my District leaders and the folks in the "Global Ministry Center" that I know to contextualize ministry in the local context. Perhaps the "power issues" that prompted this post are regional / district specific.

Re: The Church of the Nazarene Will End in the Next 15 Years

mrdcbrush — Thu, 12 Feb 2009 17:50:28 -0000

I wanted to respond a bit further on your comment regarding the brick wall of Nazarene culture. I experience it, and I am 3rd generation, so it is definitely an issue. However I think that many are finding that being on the fringes is where the Holy Spirit is truly moving. :-) And to second Greg's observation.

Re: The Church of the Nazarene Will End in the Next 15 Years

Greg Arthur — Thu, 12 Feb 2009 16:50:10 -0000

Jen,

Welcome glad to have you here.

I have totally missed out on about the last week of comments, sorry about that.

I think that the example of membership is a great example of where things are changing from the bottom up. While the denomination continues to insist on different lifestyle choices as necessities for membership many churches within the denomination, especially those that are growing and reaching into the post church crowd, are not holding members to these same standards.

I won't speak for any particular churches in this regard, but as I talk to different pastors it seems that there is this sense where in order to reach those outside of Nazarenedom, let alone the kingdom, they have to down play their Nazareneness. I now find in a new assignment pastoring a church that was an restart and it is barely Nazarene in many ways.

Change is coming one way or another it is more a question of whether the structure of the church will flex to allow churches on the fringes to remain in the denomination or will push them out.

Re: The Church of the Nazarene Will End in the Next 15 Years

mrdcbrush — Thu, 12 Feb 2009 15:48:29 -0000

Welcome!

Re: The Church of the Nazarene Will End in the Next 15 Years

Jennifer — Thu, 12 Feb 2009 15:44:30 -0000

I live in OKC where many Nazarene churches have closed down since I graduated SNU - Britton Road, Metroplex Fellowship, Warr Acres, Shartel Avenue, Central, Sonshine Center -- just to name a few. I realize that many urban churches have closed and the problem is bigger than just Nazarene churches of OKC. Still, it all makes me wonder. I attend BFC. I am very interested in learning more about the emergent church. Many years ago, Tony Campolo came to SNU. I became a fan, and now I am reading some of Shane Claiborne's work. Any comments on Claiborne or Potter's Community?

I was just named runner up in a contest for best writing blog in Oklahoma. I hope you'll stop by and visit my blog. I will be writing more about the emergent church in the future. One thing that bothers me about the Church of the Nazarene is how difficult it is for outsiders to penetrate the community. It's like a subculture with walls that are nearly impossible for an outsider to scale. It's very discouraging, but I stay. I had many professors at SNU that helped me gain different perspectives on the church - Dr. Tashjian, Dr. Lively, Prof. Waterman, just to name a few.

Re: The Church of the Nazarene Will End in the Next 15 Years

Mick Turner — Thu, 12 Feb 2009 09:18:11 -0000

A truly insightful post - one that forces a reflective person to seriously rethink the situation of not only the Nazarenes, but most other denominations as well. The explosive growth of the Church Universal in China, Southeast Asia, Africa, and below the Equator is a move of God that will bring necessary changes to the global Body of Christ.

When I lived in China for close to six years, I witnessed first hand the incredible power of what God is doing there. As I walked and worked among these remarkable people, I began to get a glimpse of what you are talking about in your post. As you say, it is time that we "repent of our arrogance."

Thanks for the post.

Mick

Re: The Church of the Nazarene Will End in the Next 15 Years

jesus reyes — Wed, 11 Feb 2009 18:17:38 -0000

Those evil Naznetters using the Wesleyan Quadrilateral in a Wesleyan Denomination instead of Calvin's Sola Scriptura. The nerve!! Just wait until Jack and Rexella find out.

This is how you end up with proof texting

A man dissatisfied with his life decided to consult the Bible for guidance. Closing his eyes, he flipped the book open and pointed to a spot on the page. Opening his eyes, he read the verse under his finger. It read, "Then Judas went away and hanged himself" (Matthew 27:5b) Closing his eyes again, the man randomly selected another verse. This one read, "Jesus told him, 'Go and do likewise.'" (Luke 10:37b)

Re: The Church of the Nazarene Will End in the Next 15 Years

mrdcbrush — Wed, 11 Feb 2009 17:12:18 -0000

Thank you for helping illustrate my articles point.

Re: The Church of the Nazarene Will End in the Next 15 Years

Paul — Wed, 11 Feb 2009 15:06:57 -0000

meant "universalists"...sorry.

Re: The Church of the Nazarene Will End in the Next 15 Years

Paul — Wed, 11 Feb 2009 15:03:40 -0000

I didn't comment politically. I commented on a religious truth statement made in a linked article.

Why are the postmodern congregations seemingly attended by so many thuniversalists?

Re: The Church of the Nazarene Will End in the Next 15 Years

John — Wed, 11 Feb 2009 15:00:25 -0000

The heretical group called Naznet has struck again. They vow to spread their evil vermon throughout our blessed denomination. This evil organization must be stopped.

Re: The Church of the Nazarene Will End in the Next 15 Years

mrdcbrush — Wed, 11 Feb 2009 14:02:36 -0000

This isn't a political thread.

Re: The Church of the Nazarene Will End in the Next 15 Years

Grant — Wed, 11 Feb 2009 13:30:59 -0000

Thanks for the response. Yeah - church membership is one place where the "power of the denomination" is felt. I wonder how many pastors (like myself) get around some of the stuff we don't care for by de-emphasizing it in our membership classes. I was on staff with Jesse before he was elected GS and I hold closely to his comment to me that the Manual serves the local church, the local church doesn't serve the Manual. That is my "out" for conformity to issues that hinder our missional stance in our particular place of ministry. The Manual (including the Covenant of CC) is a provisional document, open to revision every 4 years, so I personally don't feel overly bound by it. It is a guide and in many cases, a very helpful guide to our church and its members. I do hold tightly to Article IV and keep this in mind when the Manual conflicts with where the Scripture is calling us to be/do in our community.

Re: The Church of the Nazarene Will End in the Next 15 Years

Paul — Wed, 11 Feb 2009 13:11:33 -0000

This says it all:

"But Obama's speech on race resonated with Glisson's own view that there are many paths to God..."

Contrast what Obama said with what Jesus said:

"I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." (John 14:6, New International Version)

Glisson, and all, should have listened to Jesus on the subject, not Obama.

Re: The Church of the Nazarene Will End in the Next 15 Years

mrdcbrush — Wed, 11 Feb 2009 08:38:46 -0000

You are correct we do now, I am not quite as hopeful in the future though. Take for instance the need to remove/rework the Covenant of Christian Conduct for example, I feel that many churches already find it untenable and irrelevant to how they do church in their context, and making membership tied to it can/will limit our ability to build leadership. I have a wonderful guy at my church that will never be a "Nazarene" in the membership sense due to general church membership requirements. In the Kingdom sense he has great potential so I don't mind the fact that he is exploring another church in which he can grow, but I think it is a shame he couldn't find roots in our church. Basically the whole concept of membership needs to be reworked in order to let local churches determine what is appropriate in their context. When our membership requirements potentially exclude Jesus than we have a problem.

To take into account Brian's sentiments above, there are international churches that need to develop in their own directions which may be more pentecostal or conservative than the European or North American churches. And it needs to be okay for that to happen. Your right we are already incredibly good at letting local churches have power, however there will be an intense external pressure I feel as the next two generations pass to try for one last go at strong central authority as some move into protectionist modes.

I hear you about the pastor/board thing and that is a struggle. I think a lot of the churches that have a board vs. pastor struggle it is systemic to that body, it doesn't matter who the pastor is. With that said I think we will find that churches with that uncooperative stigma will simply find that their D.S. isn't throwing them any bones when the last pastor leaves and ultimately closing the doors. Which brings us to the centralized ownership of the church which is it's biggest stick. If a congregation no longer feels that in order to be faithful to Jesus in their context they must relinquish their Nazarene status all tangible assets revert to the district, who in actuality never did anything for it while receiving the benefits of it. I can see a day when we may have thousands of un-used buildings falling into dis-repair as churches die organically or ecclesially, that is not an 'image' I think we want.

Re: The Church of the Nazarene Will End in the Next 15 Years

Grant — Wed, 11 Feb 2009 01:19:41 -0000

I'm a newcomer to this blog, so I hope you don't mind me jumping in. I'm curious what "surrender more of it's power to the local congregation" looks like in your context. I've pastored on two districts in the west (Washington Pacific and Canada Pacific) and I can't say I've ever feel "overpowered" by either the District or General Church. My experience is that local congregations have a lot of freedom/power to determine what a faithful Nazarene community looks like in our context. I've been blessed not to have to face many power-struggles in my churches, but from others, I get the sense that the "surrender of power" issue is more a conflict between pastor and congregation over mission/vision than between pastor/church and denomination. Help me understand what powers are hindering your ability to determine what a faithful Nazarene community is in your context. Thanks.

Re: The Church of the Nazarene Will End in the Next 15 Years

jesus reyes — Tue, 10 Feb 2009 22:31:18 -0000

I'm sure everyone on this blog has seen the Newsweak article about young Doug Paul who is from Southside Nazarene in Richmond and who has started an emerging type church. The church thinks that they and Doug Paul have parted company, Doug Paul - not so much. Doug Paul was misrepresented in the Newsweak article and explains how this is so in his own blog. His blog has some extraordinary logic in what christian politics might look like in a more sophisticated context and understanding. The article is interesting, but the blog is truly interesting.

http://www.newsweek.com/id/...
http://dougpaul.wordpress.com/

You have to scroll back thru the blog to find the "Young Evangelical" series.

Re: The Church of the Nazarene Will End in the Next 15 Years

mrdcbrush — Tue, 10 Feb 2009 22:15:33 -0000

It's been some time so I'll add a few qualifiers:

Local Nazarene churches will persist, however the denomination will need to surrender even more if it's power to the local congregations to determine what a faithful Nazarene community is in that context.

It will need to follow more of a decentralized 'Starfish' model of ministry.

The church needs to reorganize largely under the context of Missions with the main focus of the church being pursuit of God's mission in each context. We must reclaim missiology as the informer of all of our ecclesiology and stop thinking of it as something as those 'called people' do over 'there' and think of missiology as something we ALL do RIGHT HERE.

Re: The Church of the Nazarene Will End in the Next 15 Years

jesus reyes — Tue, 10 Feb 2009 17:52:30 -0000

but not by much. It's argumentable