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I think discipleship can only work when it´s NOT made into a program or a prescribed model. We have to learn how to disciple in ways that work for each individual disciple, and with such a variety of people there can not be one model that just works, or one program that is really as effective as we want it to be.
this begins with being discipled. It also involves a lot of time in relationship with others. I´ve been working with MissionCorps (formerly NIVS) for 4 months now and I´m constantly surprised at how little value nazarene missionaries place on relationships. there can be no discipleship with out relationship. In his entire life Jesus only managed to personally disciple what, 12 guys? And we have pastors who are trying to disciple what, 100 people at once? forget about it. that´s the approach to ministry that forces us into discipleship as program, because it´s easier to cast our net wider that way. and it´s killing us.
I have to disagree on this one. I have heard the woe-is-us, half-hearted mantra much through all the writings of the modern era. I think this is an out-dated problem that we continue to lean on to hide what is really going on nowadays in the church. I see our current predicament as us being fully invested, hard-hearted Christians who have chosen to victimize ourselves to accept a condemning and legalistic gospel that only has the mission to hate, judge and accuse our society of sin.
Yes, we need a revival of our first love but we also need to blow up the tidy mechanisms, stat-gathering exercises and polished programs that we have in place that point us to preach a gospel that is mean and hurtful. We need to let our hair down and translate the book of Acts for today by offering ourselves as ransom (imitators of Christ) that will spread the life and love of Christ to every neighbor and community who share the same air we breathe.
I am confused a little bit by your comment, and it may be because I asked questions without really giving answers. I was really trying to look at this problem and to suggest that we come up with answers or ideas that would be radically different than the program based, boxed up, discipleship we have attempted for the past hundred years.
I would think that real discipleship would be messy and hard and different based on what contexts it was happening.
I think you are right in that there are plenty within the church that act as victims and are very condemning, but I don't think those are marks of being fully invested as disciples. To do so would have to be reflected in a life of love and seeking others. The attitudes of those Christians is the result of our misunderstanding and poor execution of discipleship, don't you think?
Thanks for the comment.
Not only are we fully invested but we have sold our souls to the spirit of the Sanhedrin to sweetly promote a cruel legalism here in America; a dark shadow of religion complete with a creative series of new looks, as we’re pursuing awesome website designs, and we offer convenient Sunday services, sporting multimedia wonder shows that are borne from our yearly church-luxury staff retreats.
Instead of practicing and/or sacrificing our waking moments for the sake of mentorship and pouring our lives into deep discipleship, we’re increasing our pastoral salaries in the church, buying nice houses and then keeping the rank and file in-line with the oracles of the denomination and then dispatching the masses for political warfare.
In our own local communities there are the marginalized, the homeless and the destitute that need advocates (usable representatives of Christ) who are touching and serving the least-of-these and the who-so-ever(s) of our neighborhoods. These spaces are ideal training grounds for seasons of discipleship and mentoring. Instead, we have hijacked this holy process of discipleship in order to create neat forgeries and even then, entire kingdoms of ideology that neither carries the heart of God, nor has the compassion to open our hearts for those unwanted souls of our society that Christ died for.
It sounds like you have been really frustrated by the communities you have been a part of and the overall realities of the evangelical church in America. You are right in addressing many of the downfalls of the past 150 years of the church in this country.
I am hopeful though, because there are some really wonderful churches that are moving beyond the faults of the 20th century American church and instead of finding the ability to renew and redeem lives and communities through missional living. Let's pray that we will see the day where these churches are more the rule than the exception.
However, there is indeed a great denial that we are protecting that is paralyzing our efforts to practice love and to be the living message of Jesus that we are called to portray in our society.
A greater portion of the American evangelical church, while erecting a fashionable image of Jesus, has moved into and is vigorously pursuing a skillful plane of superiority and pride that has caused us to become numb to our present denial that is hypnotizing us from knowing our own error.
You had mentioned in an earlier post, “I would think that real discipleship would be messy and hard and different based on what contexts it was happening…”
Is it really? I see the New Testament model of discipleship as energizing, informative and exciting…transforming!
Where I see the “messy and hard” is being more related to the wasteland of souls that have been run-over by the gospel of political ideology; the post-modern-day modern-evangelical church (eeek!) has now adopted a convenient hypocrisy as the truth of the day. We have heard many times before in the last few decades, this fact, as an example, that the most racist day of the week is Sunday. Why must this still be a reality (among others) in our contemporary Christian witness?
Most of my frustration lies with seeing our church-corporations turn their backs on the “come as you are” virtue while re-traumatizing vulnerable people walking into our front doors who come to us for help, and then, we insist they receive a list of do’s and don’ts if they want to look like us….yuck!
We are more for what we’re against which evidently exposes our inner fears; we actually see the glass as half empty and we cave-in to a self-preservation mode of denial, and demonstrate for all, the spirit of the accuser at all others who are not like us. The poor media-report of who we are across the spectrum of communities IS the image we represent because it is the loudest voice/image we promote in the public forum. We need to take notice and not hide in our quick-n-easy excuses that are cloaked in church-ianity.
Most of the churches that we designate among ourselves as “wonderful” are mostly frozen in omission and out-of-fear (again) we stand aside. Our convenient exceptions allow us to continue to destroy the hurting souls around us and through our non-action we perpetuate our error by being silent.
Just this morning, I was reading Galatians 5 with my daughter and I am so glad that Paul did not pull his punches regarding the politics of the church. His language and tone is vibrant and intentionally pointed to pinpoint, identify and offer crucial guidance to help keep us on-track. Trading warm-fuzzies with one another in the post-modern era is going to drift us further deep into the quicksand of denial. Who will stand-up and call the church back into the wrestling match of truth and love?
First, it’s tempting to be angry at people because they are not more spiritual. We have “lapses” when we forget that “all of us lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature….by nature objects of wrath” (Ephesians 2:3), "but God who is rich in mercy made us alive in Christ."
Second, how does Jesus see these lackluster, spiritual anemics? In Matthew 9:36, when Jesus saw the crowds what do the Scriptures say? They do not say, "When he saw the crowds, he was sickened by their depravity." No doubt he was, but that is not the "first" way that our Lord sees people. Instead, "When he saw the crowds, he had compassion on them, because they were harassed and helpless, like sheep without a shepherd."
Third, the text goes on to point out that the problem is not a lack of harvest, but a lack of workers. How can we be more about the business of making disciples who grasp the value of reproducing themselves as in 2 Timothy 2:2? And what is a disciple, anyway? Here's a definition that I like because it's biblical and actionable (i.e., you can build your sermons and ministry around it): A disciple is someone "called" to live in Christ, "equipped" to live like Christ, and "sent to live for Christ.
Patrick Morley, author of Pastoring Men
No doubt Jesus begins discipleship by accepting and drawing into relationship those he is discipling. He is certainly far more patient and merciful in his treatment of those who are spiritual weaklings than all the Pharisees who view themselves as spiritual giants. These who were supposed to be most fully committed to God had failed at the most basic level, learning to love as God loves.
Peace,
Steven
Dallas Willard has gone to great lengths to describe what he sees Discipleship as, and I find myself generally in agreement with him, with some of Yoder and Claiborne thrown in for flavor.
But for many Christians, 'Disciple' or 'Discipleship' are terms with little practical meaning or bearing on their lives. They've been replaced with terms like "missionary" or "monk" or "pastor".
At the same time, as the position of "layperson" within the church has become a practical imitation sponge, there has become a growing awareness that "Christian" is not equal to "lifestyle change". And discussions of lifestyle change invariably become intertwined with accusations of legalism.
It doesn't help, I suspect, that so few of our modern congregations truly understand the difference between "Apostle" and "Disciple". Certainly, Christ didn't call anybody to become a Christian, only a Disciple, and a Disciple would live a life that took on the character and behaviour of Christ, even up to and including self-sacrifice for others.
But Mary, Martha, and Lazarus were just as much disciples holding services at their home as Paul and Barnabus were, traveling and being tormented and killed. Disciples can do different things, and still be the same people in Christ.
Common issues I've seen, beyond the recognition of what Discipleship is:
1. Lack of Mentoring, Come-along-side programs where people work and grow together, more than once a week.
2. Lack of accountability, confession, etc. programs that help people look at what they're doing and how it coincides not only with their fellow believers, but "it's good with us and the Spirit".
3. Lack of practical, ongoing activity to invest one's self in...Faith is putting belief into action. Any program that lacks actual activity to invest belief in will leave it's followers empty, as their only job is to show up and "care".
(http://emergentnazarenes.blogspot.com/2008/11/p... )
our " church in a bubble" has made a radical shift, becoming missional in reguards to inner city ministry...selling church property on "good" side of town etc... after spending 3 years learning what it meant to be a disciple in first century Judaism. This article found on the En Gedi Resource Center site is a good introduction.
Raise Up Many Disciples!
Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age. (Matt 28:19)
Jesus' final words were those of what we call the Great Commission - to make disciples of the whole world. But what is a disciple? The ancient, Hebraic picture Jesus had of raising disciples was unique to his Jewish culture. By learning about this practice, we can have fresh insight into how Jesus wants us to fulfill his command.
Jesus lived in a deeply religious culture that valued biblical understanding more than anything else. To become a great rabbi was the highest goal possible, and just to be a disciple of a famous rabbi was an honor. All boys studied and memorized the scriptures until age twelve, and then learned a trade after that. Only a small minority could keep studying, and only a very few were able to go on to learn with a rabbi. Rabbis acted as wandering expositors who taught in synagogues and homes, and outdoors when a crowd gathered. They taught general audiences, and also had a small band of disciples who lived with them and followed them everywhere. They traveled from town to town teaching, because no mass-communication was available. They often practiced a trade of their own, but when traveling they were dependent on the hospitality of the community. Indeed, it was forbidden to charge money to teach, but people were expected to support them and invite them into their homes.
Even to the present day, Judaism retains a tradition of discipleship. When Jewish rabbis are ordained, they are commissioned to "Raise up many disciples". This is the first verse of Pirke Avot (Wisdom of the Fathers), from the Mishnah, the Jewish compendium of laws and sayings from around Jesus' time. Texts like this have much to say about the rabbinic method for raising disciples. Another passage that describes discipleship is this:
Let your house be a meeting place for the rabbis, and cover yourself in the dust of their feet, and drink in their words thirstily. (Pirke Avot 1:4)
This text casts light on several stories from Jesus' ministry in the gospels. Mary, Martha and Lazarus opened their home to Jesus in the tradition of showing hospitality toward rabbis and disciples. Their house would also have served as a place for meetings for him to teach small groups. We also read that Mary "sat at Jesus' feet" to learn from him (Luke 10:39), which may be the sense of the phrase "cover yourself in the dust of their feet". The phrase may also have meant to walk behind him to listen to him teach, as Jesus' disciples would have done. On the unpaved roads in Israel, they literally would have been covered in their rabbi's dust.
What was expected of rabbis and disciples?
Rabbis were expected not only to be greatly knowledgeable about the Bible, but to live exemplary lives to show that they had taken the scriptures to heart. The objective of their teaching was to instill in their disciples both the knowledge and desire to live by God's word. It was said, "If the teacher is like an angel of the Lord, they will seek Torah from him. If not, they will not seek Torah from him" (Babylonian Talmud, Hagigah 15b). The disciple's goal was to gain the rabbi's understanding, but even more importantly, to become like him in character. It was expected that when the student would become mature enough, that he would take his rabbi's teaching out to the community, add his own understanding to it, and raise up disciples of his own.
A disciple was expected to leave family and job behind to join the rabbi in his austere lifestyle. They would live twenty-four hours a day together, walking from town to town, teaching, working, eating, and studying. As they lived together, they would discuss the scriptures and apply them to their lives. The disciples were supposed to be the rabbi's servants, submitting to his authority while they served his needs. Indeed, the word "rabbi" means "my master", and was a term of great respect, the same title that a slave would use to address his owner.
This sheds new light on the story of when Jesus washed the disciples' feet. Jesus was entitled to having them wash his feet, not the other way around! By his actions he was teaching them a great lesson in humility - that the one most deserving of being served is serving himself, while they were arguing who is the greatest. Jesus was using typical rabbinic technique - he didn't just lecture, he used his own behavior as an example to them.
The rabbi-disciple relationship was very intimate. The rabbi was considered to be closer than a father to his disciples, and disciples were sometimes called "sons". When Peter said "Even if I have to die with you, I will not deny you," he was reflecting the deep love and commitment that disciples had for their rabbi (Matt. 26:35). In contrast, Judas' betrayal would have been unthinkable, even if Jesus had not been the Messiah. Jesus' insistence that his disciples leave everything behind to follow him would not have been considered extreme in that culture. They held up the image of Elisha as a model of a disciple's commitment, who burned his plow and left everything to become Elijah's disciple (1 Kings 19). After Elisha had lived with Elijah and served him for many years, then he received Elijah's authority to go out as his successor, as the disciples did from Jesus.
What light does this shed on the Great Commission?
Jesus' eastern method of discipleship gives us a new picture of what he called us to do. Our Western model focuses mainly on the gospel as information, and our goal is to be a person of correct understanding. We focus mainly on spreading information about Jesus, not on living our life like him and inspiring others to do the same. While it is important to teach and defend truth, Jesus' method of discipleship is much more than that. He began his Kingdom by walking and living with disciples, to show them how to be like him. Then they went out and made disciples, doing their best to imitate Jesus and show others by their own example. Jesus expects that his kingdom will be built in this way - as each person grows in maturity, they live their lives transparently before others, counseling them on what they have learned about following Christ. The kingdom is built primarily through these close relationships of learning, living and teaching.
Paul uses the same model of discipleship in his ministry. He said,
...in Christ Jesus I became your father through the gospel. Therefore I urge you to imitate me. For this reason I am sending to you Timothy, my son whom I love, who is faithful in the Lord. He will remind you of my way of life in Christ Jesus, which agrees with what I teach everywhere in every church. (1 Cor 4:15 - 17)
We can hear that Paul's goal for the Corinthians is that they become disciples - who change their lives to be like Christ, not just learn the correct beliefs. Using rabbinic method, he likens himself as a father to them, and he send his disciple Timothy, who he calls "his son". He wants them to learn by the example of Timothy about his own way of life, which is a reflection of Jesus' teaching. Paul is using this "whole person" method of evangelism to transform their lives, not just their minds, to reflect the truth.
Through this model of discipleship, we see that Jesus isn't just interested in having our minds. He wants our hearts and lives too. Once our lives reflect what our minds believe, then the belief has actually reached our hearts. Then our passion for following him becomes a loud witness for him, and inspires others to do the same.
________________________________
Information for this article comes from several articles on first century discipleship from Jerusalem Perspective.
http://www.followtherabbi.com/Brix?pageID=2753
Peace,
Steven
My partner and I were wondering if you are an inclusive church? We are a gay couple with two children, and were looking for a place to worship. The last church we were in (Greater Life Nazarene), was not very nice to us. They asked us to leave the church after we participated in a gay pride parade in Des Moines. We are very discouraged about churches right now.
Would you be able to help us? We are also interested in getting our District Minister's License. We feel God has called us to preach the Good News.
We look forward to your reply.
Gene and Jeff
I am sorry to hear that your time with Greater Life Nazarene was not a good experience for you. As a denomination I am pretty certain that you would not share much solidarity with us when it comes to your views on homosexuality. I would hope however that you would find solidarity with us when it comes to the way we should love one another and embrace each other as Christ embraced humanity itself. This isn’t always easy in a world where we often disagree and have conflicting convictions and passions, but it is something we should strive for as we strive to become more and more like Christ.
I am sure you have been challenged to find ways to practice grace, tolerance, forgiveness and love for those that take their disagreement to a level of hate or prejudice. Certainly bearing one another’s sins is part of our call to be like Jesus. So I ask you to bear up our sins or at least our trespasses when you feel the convictions of others trespass in your life.
With that said, I hope that you could find a safe place to worship within a local Nazarene community. I do believe such communities are out there. This probably does not mean that your involvement would be easy or without friction. It also means that it would not be a likely place to pursue becoming a licensed minister. However, wrestling and struggling with such hard issues is not a bad thing for any community and though it would require sacrifice on your part I am sure that many Nazarene communities would find a relationship with you and Jeff to be a blessing.
Peace,
James
Yesterday I posted a sincere apology to Gene and Jeff and today I notice that it has been removed. This selective maneuvering is totally a modern-move. Is this blog-huddle really trying to embrace post-modern relevance?...Well, I see that we are, once again, caught in our tendency to control and restrict information out of our own fears and our compulsion for self-preservation. This is how the modern era distorts and tempts us to insert our agenda into the message of freedom perverting its intention to offer grace and compassion. Didn’t we all struggle with the Wesleyan via-media position at some point?
Emergent awareness is not ideally represented by utilizing these same modern methods that have made the church powerless in today’s society. We need to be able to be free from our fears and even risk our own reputation for the sake of others to come to the reality of knowing Christ in this day and age.
Today I received this e-mail from James:
“Thanks for your compassionate response to "Gene and Jeff", as you probably can see I tried to do the same just yesterday right before you.
Here is my concern though, I am not convinced that Gene and Jeff are for real. To be honest the comment seems fake, perhaps written by someone trying to entrap people into saying something that would make people angry on one side of this issue or the other. I don't want us to be drawn into these kinds of things.
I suspect the comment for several reasons. First, because they talked about getting a district license. This is an insider term, yet the email presents themselves as outsiders. Secondly, most homosexuals that claim a Christian faith I have encountered would not likely participate in the gay pride parade because it does not necessarily promote monogamous gay relationships. I suspect that comment is really from a really right leaning Nazarene trying to bait those of us our blog to see how we would respond to his scenario.
Of course, I did leave room for being wrong and I wanted to respond compassionately. I would like to just wait and see if this person responds again and see if we can get a better idea if they are for real before we give the comment to much attention.
Thanks again Richard for your compassionate response. I was worried that the comment would have drummed up hate speech. This would be tragic if the comments are genuine, and even if they are fake.”
James, while I appreciate your sincere concerns, I believe this tone of voice still replicates the theological sinking that occurs from yielding to the matrix of modern thought. Your e-mail represents to me a reaction of self-preservation lurching to save the face of the church from further embarrassment. The real concern for "hate speech" needs to be turned inward of which our American contingent of the church is guilty over all.
We must leave the security of the church in God’s hands and get back to the book of Acts and risk all; an unrestrained ransoming of our own lives, fears and reputation, thus casting the genuine mission and vision of Christ’s freedom into society.
What did Jesus risk for us? What scandal was erupted by his life? The scandal of the modern church is mostly damage control and does not share in the same suffering or privilege of outrage that Jesus created when he was sentenced to die and that, death by a cross.
Whether Gene and Jeff’s issue is fake or not, our response to this issue, regretfully, remains the same. Being on the outer rim of modernism means that we must go beyond our unflattering skill of typical modern-understanding and break free from our casual pretense of “hate the sin, love the sinner” tolerance. Our act of listening must be risky, even to the end of our reputations, thus getting out-of-the-way in order that the love of Christ may flood in.
Emergent Nazarenes Website Limits Forum
You can read this again here if need be at.....
http://safe4space.wordpress.com/2008/12/27/emer...
I am deeply grieved that you would take my private conversation with you back to the comment section. I question both your character and integrity for violating such trust in posting an email that was obviously meant for you alone. Not to mention, if you had a problem with my actions you could have replied back to my email. If you shared your objection to my actions I would have not had a problem with posting your comments. In the three plus years this blog has existed I have never deleted a comment, and I did so this time with great hesitation- which is why I sent you an email about it. Again, you could have replied back to me and I may have come around to see your point and perhaps even rescinded my actions. I am not beyond making errors, but would have appreciated being approached as a brother rather than your public grandstanding. In the end the ones this hurts the most are Gene and Jeff.
Ironically, I did not find your original comment very objectionable, I just wanted to wait and see what Gene and Jeff’s response was and learn a bit more about them in their situation before people started taking sides based only on their ability to jump to conclusions. The only thing I was surprised about was how easily you felt you could throw a whole church community under the bus in your condemnations of their actions. Unless you were familiar with the particular situation I wasn’t sure how you could do that. Still, I very much appreciated the spirit of your reply wanting to come to the defense of those who appear to be marginalized.
Obviously I did not want to accuse Gene and Jeff’s comments of being contrived. I wanted to err on the side that they were sincere. Again, I regret sharing this with you in an attempt to engage in a private conversation. I apologize to Gene and Jeff for my private comments that were just posted by Richard that he took from the private email I sent him. In no way do I want to minimize your struggle, your pain, and any actions that were wrongly done to you both. I certainly did not want to take your personal situation and turn into a public case study where our limited understanding of it would lead to nothing but uninformed conjecture and opinions by everybody and anybody.
Richard, the truth is though, I know nothing about the situation, and how Gene and Jeff were treated or mistreated. I am not sure how I can condone the actions of this church they attended or “apologize” for their actions as you suggest. I wasn’t interested in self preservation but rather wanted to receive these two as lovingly as I could while also trying to remain fair minded. I was not interested in my reputation, or the church’s, but wanted to encourage an atmosphere where we can work toward unity and peace wherever we can. I mentioned nothing that promoted ideas as over simplistic such as “hate the sin, love the sinner”. If you take the time to read some of my comments and postings about the issue of homosexuality on this blog and my personal one, you would know that I believe this to be an incredibly complex issue. You would also know that I more often than not stand on the side of those who are marginalized rather than defend the institutionalized church.
Richard, I am not sure how any of your comments are particularly helpful to anyone. They do not encourage us to bear up each others sins, imperfections and trespasses as I encouraged Gene and Jeff to do as they seek a faith community that can do the same. Again, you do not seem to be interested in working through the smallest conflict such as a deleted comment by a brother in Christ. If you want to make a difference in more difficult conflicts and struggles in the church it is going to take far more maturity, love, and respect for your neighbor; especially to be able to work though very tough issues like the one Gene and Jeff described.
James
If you want help to experience more freedom from the modern mindset, I would very much enjoy walking along side with you.
Thank you for daring to continue to reason this out! Don't stop the dialogue regardless of how difficult this may become for all of us as we all continue to move forward meeting with God through this major transition that is ahead.
Blessings to you brother.
If you want people to really listen to you and take you seriously you are going to have to learn humility in your attitudes and speech. You can see my picture next to my comment because I am a real person, the people at the church in question are real people, just because this is the internet don't make the mistake of believing your comments don't affect people in real and emotional ways. What James did was reasonable and proper given that fact.
I then tried to comment on your blog and it told me that my comment was "awaiting moderation". What? Isn't the very thing your complaining about was the "control" of the forum? Isn't that what you accused of being "so modern"? Why is it you have the right to "control" and others do not?
Thanks for the post. It's up bro!
Happy New Year!
Pentecost marks the empowerment of the quavering disciples - teaching, the resurrection, Jesus post-resurrection gatherings were all inadequate - ONLY after their empowering at Pentecost did the disciples display power.
And they were directed by Jesus to await this empowering.
Hence, I'm of the persuasion that even these days, any good plan/program/structure that is not powered by the Spirit will be destined for mediocrity, if not visible catastrophe.
Hence, it seems that the rhythm of "work" is
a) "upper room prayer" by the Body until power is received
b) work impelled by that power.
While I still have much to learn & articulate, it seems very clear that ANY work lacking the empowerment of the Holy Spirit will (and should) fail to fully glorify the Father.
gene --
He's not GOD, so why call him God? he's not the Lord, so why call Him Lord, that is calling on Baal. Exodus 23:13 strictly forbids us to call on the names of other pagan dieties, so why do it, is it because you have been brainwashed to believe that the old law was done away with and nailed to the stake? Hmmmmmmmmm interseting concept that leads to destruction! I would stop trying so hard to bring people to Christ, you are only fooling yourself and those you try to convert. It will be a grave sin you will answer for when judgement day does comes. Seek out the facts and test the results. Our Father's Name is Yahuah, not god, allah, jehovah or anything like it! He says MY people SHALL know my Name, who's are you? Yeah the same old thing goes on year after year, they promise you heaven tomorrow in the churches of America while they lead you straight to hell today! They give you a few warm fuzzies, pat you on the back, pick your pockets and tell you to come back next Sun_Day so they can do it all over again! By the way Sun_day is worshipping on the veneral Day of the Sun, so Basically Christians are sun worshippers and don't even know it! Christian is a greek term used by the worshippers of Serapis long before your Jesus Christ showed up, which is hard to portray since the letter J did'nt exist in the English language untill 500 years ago! Also Christian is cognate with the word Cretin, which means Mentallydeficient, idiot, fool and CHRISTIAN, see your dictionary! Why would anyone want to call themselves a CHRISTIAN when it means mentally deficient idiot and fool? Guess it's fitting what Paul said, they that thought they were wise became fools! Interesting. So in a nut shell you Christians are all fools and mentally deficient to the facts of life and you are all Sun worshippers who worship false gods on Sun-Day! If you don't believe me,. do the research! Upon all the gifts My Father gives his children, he says to add knowledge! That way you won't become a fool! Yahuah Shaloam, Terry Gedman