DISQUS

James Diggs · 6 months ago

Thanks Jason, I can’t help but to think of Dietrich Bonhoeffer when he says, “Love community and you will kill it. Love your brother and you will build it.”

Shane Claiborne’s paraphrase is also good when he says, “If you love the vision you have for community, you will destroy community. If you love the people around you, you will create community.”

Thanks for the post man, I look forward to the next one.

Peace

brad grinnen · 6 months ago

Jason,

concise. i like it.

i also agree with you. i would go on further about how i agree, but then i would be writing a post myself, lol. so i'll save it for another day.

brad

Tim S · 6 months ago

So, what is the responsibility of the church "C"?

T <><

Jason · 6 months ago

Well, according to this theory, the role of the church/c would be to be almost like a vacuum. Attract people towards the center but at the center leave a whole that they have to fill themselves or else nothing exists. And then perhaps to constantly send people out so that they are out being the church/b and their remains a vacuum at the center of the church/c.

Dan G · 6 months ago

It seems remarkable that it is almost a foriegn concept to think of Christianity existing without church "c". This may be one of those times where the need for conversation is the greatest evidence for the need for change

Jason · 6 months ago

totally

Tim S · 6 months ago

Jason,
This theory seems to undermine the role and creation of denominations (The church “C” seems to be alluding to denominations, doesn’t it?) along with the diversity and many differences in the Body of Christ across the world. Don’t they have a place in God’s plan? Your summary of Peter Rollins (for the church to be the church there needs to be no church.) indicates denominations to be a hindrance and something we need to do away with in order to really be the church God has called us to be.

Do you think denominations are created by man? God? Both man and God? I’m still thinking through on this, but I think I lean toward the side that God has allowed the Nazarene Church to come into existence as a part of the Catholic/Universal Church. We have a right to exist and we are a God-ordained institution. God has been a co-creator, with man, in bringing the Nazarene Church into existence. Man could not have brought the Nazarene Church into existence alone, nor could God, it took both working together.

I’m human, so I could be misinterpreting your thinking on this and you’re human so you’ll probably let me know if I am. :-)

Jason · 6 months ago

That's an interesting question Tim, thanks for bringing it up. I honestly wasn't thinking about this on a denominational level. So far I have only tried to imagine what "vacuum leadership" would look like in the local congregation.

But I will say that I do believe in the importance of congregations, I am not a life time Nazarene, I chose it after seminary because I wanted to be part of something larger then myself. At the same time, I hold my identity as Nazarene lightly; I think of myself as a Christian first, the pastor of my small congregation second, and a Nazarene third -- does that make sense?

I will also say that I think our district staff (M.A.D.) models some of this. They don't really lead from a top-down perspective, but rather by trying to call pastors into the things they see as important. I'm sure if Rollins was to comment on the existence of Congregations he would have some much more radical things to say, but so far I haven't heard him talk about it.

Thanks for the question, that gives me more to think about.

Jeff Snelling · 6 months ago

Been watching the General Assembly. They are arguing on Article 10 - Entire Sanctification. What does the average person really care what happens here?
BTW: Another upper class white guy from College Church in Olathe named Superintendent. What a surprise.

mrdcbrush · 6 months ago

While I agree with the need for broader diversity and have written a few posts about it here, we need to be careful in discounting Graves' election. While he has the labels you speak about God works in the hearts of all men, even upper class white ones...

Peace,
DB

mrdcbrush · 6 months ago

Equipping believers for accountable growth is the key, and while I realize you are putting forward a rough idea we can't simply say we refuse to lead. You speak of a vacuum... if we use this analogy from physics we must be careful... Something may have sufficient mass by which it enters into the pull of the vacuum but is then projected outward again via a centrifugal force... however those of less mass (poorly equipped) will succumb to the centripetal force of the vacuum and be pulled in with no hope of escape.

All that to say, refusing to lead is a nice postmodern way of avoiding responsibility for discipleship by claiming it's the others responsibility. I believe a Christian response will be slightly different in that we refuse leadership not to push back, as Rollins says, the responsibility on others; rather the Christian refuses a top-down leadership for an abiding servent context. We become the encouragers and the guides that lend ourselves to a person so as to create sufficient mass to navigate the vacuum and emerge as missionally sent beings on the other side together.

While I enjoy Rollin's work this model places too much emphasis on the efficacy of the individual.

Jason · 6 months ago

Hey David,
I think what you say makes sense, but I worry sometimes that the servant-leader model creates an unrealistic burden on the single servant leader. It seems the goal is to create a community of mutual servanthood. And I wonder if we don't rob our folks of the opportunity to serve one another by being the lead-server of all?

I am curious about your last sentence, what do you mean when you say, "too much emphasis on the efficacy of the individual"? Whose the individual in your question, the pastor or the congregant?

mrdcbrush · 6 months ago

I would clarify that by critical mass I mean a community approach to discipleship; and by that I mean we are 'all' saved in a plural context together, think of a fishing net vs. a fishing hook.. We should be (continually and repeatedly) together and along-side the other. I don't know how else to approach discipleship I guess. We have to break the fish hook mentality that plagues our present theologies.

There will always be 'leaders' it is within our nature as beings to look at the trend setters. The trick is that a Kingdom-born leader shouldn't probably look like a leader in any humanistic sense... But we need leaders that are vulnerable, educated, loving, and Spirit filled (not necessarily in that order). Leadership is not going away anytime soon, nor does scripture call for it to. I think I am off track now...

Your question at the end...

Rollin's model assumes a charismatic leader to which people look to perform a priestly role that if they some how refuse to lead that all of a sudden people will take accountability. That is however a naive position to take, as the group will simply forgo that 'leader' and find another to take their place. It therefore goes beyond that individual leader's ability to change anything in the system. Instead the leader refuses to lead from the top so as to model a new way of co-discipleship. To simply hope that one leader, by creating a power-vacuum establishes legitimate desire for accountability based discipleship is too simplistic. It also places too much weight on the individual who is faced with the lack of direct leadership in most cases. Again, some may have enough mass to pull out the other side, many won't and their faith will wither. I just find his approach to be too egalitarian in the face of what I see.

Jason · 6 months ago

That makes sense, thanks for the clarification. I can't say I have experimented enough with any of this to speculate on how it would work for the folks of weaker or stronger faith.

Steven · 6 months ago

I think that the biggest problem with the modern leadership model in the Church today, is that it is based to closely on the business leader model of our day. I think a return to a Shepherd/Bishop lead Church would be much closer to the NT model then what we see today in most churches.

Peace,

Steven