DISQUS

Jeremy · 5 months ago

This is a neat diagram. It makes sense to me, but could probably use a little tweaking (as you said). In the very center of the diagram, instead of using "Hooray!", I would maybe write something like "Perfect (as in complete/whole) Love" or just, "Love," or "Life/Love" or something. To me, when I've tried to disciple people, or have been discipled, the goal isn't so much to learn about God, or learn about the faith community, but to learn about myself. The goal is for love to be more complete in me than it was before. I think right belief, right belonging, right behavior all lead to us having right love.

Does that make any sense? It does in my head at least.

mrdcbrush · 5 months ago

Jeremy,
I think Love is a good suggestion and a good way to synthesize the concept of the middle in this diagram. What I think this diagram lacks is the third dimension of movement that would better express that love; it is a lived out love, that God love fills our sails and propels us towards God and as you said a better understanding of ourselves and others as well.

Anyone have thoughts on how to represent that love is a trajectory, rather than a destination?

Phule77 · 5 months ago

What you need is a 3D graphic program that lets you both display them as spheres rather than circles, and actually mouse-over/interact with them on the screen. This would open up a lot of dimensionality. Though technically, most of these graphs are never supposed to show anything that complicated. The whole point is that you communicate a simple, one dimensional topic, and use another graph for the next step.

I think that for many of us, just as ministry is something different from normal life, discipleship is something unattainable, because so much of our time and thought is taken up with everything else. So some of it is reclassifying our lives, and other bits are figuring out what we can live without, or reorient.

Wilford Jones · 5 months ago

The Nazarene Revolutionary Guard has declared a holiness jihad on all the emergent heretics who have invaded our denomination. We vow to arrest all the evil participants of this heresy. We will send them to re-education camps where we will torture them with Gaither videos and Stan Toler sermons.
We will celebrate the success of this Insurgency by holding a good ole' Nazarene potluck where all of us can pig out at the buffet and show our fat bellies to all the world to see. Drinking and smoking are still considered sins according to our Holy book (aka: The Manual), but obesity is allowed under the rules laid down by the College of Cardinals (aka: the GS's) in Lenexa.
We encourage everyone to pray five times a day toward our Mecca in Lenexa and ask God to help us spread the message of holiness. We require that every good Nazarene make a hajj to General Assembly once in their lifetime. By making this hajj, your sins will be forgiven.
Long live the Insurgency! Long live the Revolution! Long live the Nazarene Revolutionary Guard!

mrdcbrush · 5 months ago

I guess I just don't get this boarder line stereotypical (read bigoted) joke anymore.....

Phule77 · 5 months ago

You also forgot to change your name this time, Mr. Jones. Can I find you a gray guitar?

anonymous1111111111 · 5 months ago

wow, if they're not arrogant on this site, they're ignorant.

-your fellow emergent <3

Adam · 5 months ago

wow anonymous1111111111,

your basing arrogance and ignorance on what?? Nothing like being judged by those taking pot shots as the lame "Nazarene Revolutionary Guard" spoof and anonymous "ones" who would rather criticize from the shadows than enter authentic communication.

The topic of the post seems like a reasonable idea to talk about even if there is something some may disagree with, I don't see anything arrogant or ignorant about it.

petermcdildo · 5 months ago

Greetins in the name of Allah, our leader St. Middendorf. May Allah curse anyone who does not partake of the daily Manual reading. We must go and conquer these countries and convert them to nazarendom. May St. Middendorf quide us and direct us as we take over these churches and put our nazarene hymnals in their pews. We will DESTROY any overhead projectors or anything that takes away from reading from the Holy Hymnal. May Allah grant us the strength to go on.

petermcdildo · 5 months ago

Greetings again in the name of Allah. Allah hath spoken and is wondering why we only elect "honkies" as our General Superintendents. We like to keep our community closed. We are not to be yoked with those who don't look, talk, and act like we do. Also non-"honkies" won't give as much money to support our new Mecca in Lenexa.

mrdcbrush · 5 months ago

Again,

Not sure why characterizing a whole group of peoples to make a comment about another whole group of peoples is needed....

If you want to enter into open and meaningful dialogue we are more than willing to talk. I for one am just tired and uncomfortable of your use of racial stereotypes in order to engage the issue. If you really believe what you say then lay your cards and maybe your name on the table and we can maybe actually connect, as such your posts are off-topic.

Phule77 · 5 months ago

Is belonging actually an important component of discipleship?

I ask this because I long for belonging, but it seems one of the main things that I have to sacrifice if I want to be part of a congregation. Or rather, I cannot belong on my own terms, or within any means that will actually satisfy or comfort me. Which leads me to ask questions about whether God actually intends for us to be happy in this life, or merely active.

mrdcbrush · 5 months ago

Living in right relationship is essential from my viewpoint. Vulnerability to the others with which we do life is very hard for some; others may find it easier. Those that find the most grace extended because they have nothing left to hide often find belonging the initial entry point in my experience. We have individuals that belong in our church sometimes long before belief or behavior come into focus. You mention about, "own terms." The counter-cultural push of the gospel is to move us into mutual submission, something we can never do on our own terms; so from this standpoint we must cultivate vulnerability in our way of being the church.

Phule77 · 5 months ago

I think that the essential problem with the concept of mutual submission is that, as somebody who tends to be active in a church, I wind up submitting a lot and not getting anything back. Though it's unclear how much of that is a personality issue.

But if I'm looking for, or needing certain things, and they just aren't anywhere on the menu...do I rest in the idea that sacrifice is good here in return for the reward in heaven, and give up all hope of succor or hope here on earth? This may feel extreme, but it often seems that way to me, no matter what church I'm in.

If I'm so vulnerable that I'm being injured constantly, and yet nobody is open to me, except on their own terms, then i'm going to get run over, aren't I?

mrdcbrush · 5 months ago

Our belonging is rooted in our adopted identity as a child of God. It is from this rootedness that vulnerability develops. Very few people truly rest in their identity as God's child; once you do submission becomes not something you do rather it's as natural as breathing or eating for a mature Christian. (not saying I am there yet either)

So belonging is first and foremost the action of claiming and living in your adopted identity; mutual submission is an outcome of our rootedness.

I would encourage you to think of it in those terms; you are asking others to fulfill what can only be done in Christ.

Phule77 · 4 months ago

It almost feels as if everything that is important to do or become as a disciple must be done on my own, without contact or support or interaction from or with other Christians.

mrdcbrush · 4 months ago

I think your pain is a common one many share; the hyper-individualization of our faith places the utmost importance on your 'personal walk'. I think by suggesting that we find our identity in Christ I want to emphasize that we do that together; the good news is that God uses a whole fishing net and not a single hook and line. My point is we are all drawn in and bound together by Christ. Like a mosaic of pieces.

This however does not shed Christians and specifically Christian leaders of the need to grow in and model a life in which we always tend to give more than we get. I don't see Jesus promising us an easy go of it; in fact your observations are probably mostly correct in that a life lived outwardly can be the hardest thing we ever do; and yet the calling remains. The good news is that God hasn't asked for only the emotionally strong and healthy to further the Kingdom, he happens to like using the scruffy and doggiest of us all for his glory (not ours).

I don't even want to pretend to have a concrete answer for your own situation; I can only speak from my own situation and say that I have long decided that the joy of living out the best life God has given has been so much better than worrying. As Jesus once said, "How much more does God love us?"

updated:
I would say in regards to giving more than we get I meant that on a human reciprocity level. God assures us we will be overflowing with what he gives us, but we are overflowing just so that others can give God the glory for what the overflowing does in their lives as a result. Always keep your cup pointed toward God.

jeffmoore · 4 months ago

Great diagram. Goes well with Pete Rollins idea that belief grows out of belonging and behaving. Maybe at the center is "Christ-likeness" though "Hooray!" works well too. I think God's greatest "Hooray!" comes when He sees us believing, behaving and belonging as Jesus would.