DISQUS

Jeremy · 7 months ago

I haven't visited this site for a long time, and so I hope it doesn't seem obnoxious of me to come to this community and post a link to my own blog, but I've been thinking about this subject recently too. A few years ago, as a senior at Mount Vernon Nazarene University, I had to take a "stance" on an assigned issue for one of my classes. I chose to write a short essay on the issue of abortion, and I took a pro-choice stance, clarifying (at least in hopeful intent) that pro-choice does NOT equal pro-abortion. Not to go off topic, it's not that I think this guy doing late-term abortions is okay, but I do think it is tragic that he was murdered; in church no less. Actions like this do absolutely nothing to enhance the pro-life image. I don't know if the killer claimed to be "of God" or a Christian or what, but if so, it doesn't do anything for the Kingdom of God either. This story is just sad.

For those who would like to read my position paper, here is the direct link: http://shunkfunk.blogspot.com/2007/01/essay-on-...

P.S. I have my own blog on blogger, but know nothing about this DISQUS thing and so that is why I'm posting here as a guest.

Mom of 4 · 7 months ago

Many of our social ills that we face today are a result of sin entrenched deep into our hearts. I think the foremost attack on any social problem should be to shine a light on wickedness, point out our need for a Savior, and allow the Holy Spirit to convict hearts so that people will be redeemed from the inside out.....first conviction, then grace.

I was appalled when I came across this information regarding the "service" that Tiller provided to (in many cases) not poverty-stricken, but middle to high income women (mothers).
I think this clearly illustrates that abortion, in many cases, is a sin issue.
http://kgov.com/gallery/abortion/wichita-memori...

There is nothing more powerful in changing society, and improving society than to preach and teach the Gospel and call sinners to repentance, and then to make disciples out of those whose lives have been redeemed.
Afterall, this is what Christ commissioned us to do.

jen · 7 months ago

Some statistics I want to point out. Twenty-five percent of the women having abortions are over 30. 13 percent of women who have abortions describe themselves as evangelical Christian. (Source: http://www.prochoice.org/about_abortion/facts/w...)

Shockingly, 27 percent of women having abortions say they are Catholic. Shocking because in this country, less than 24 percent of the population is Catholic, while more than 51 percent is Protestant. Thus, if you believe these stats (Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_the_Un...), then one thing that needs to be explored is the disproportionate number of Catholic women seeking abortions.

Greg Arthur · 7 months ago

Jen,

That completely goes to the heart of what I am talking about. Even women in the church are turning to abortion. How much are we lacking as the church where this is an issue even for us?

Stephen · 7 months ago

It is my conviction that sanctity of life must also mean calling for the repealing of the death penalty, as well. We cannot honor unborn life and call for the intentional killing of someone at the same time.

Greg Arthur · 7 months ago

Stephen I concur exactly. I have no idea why so many Christians are pro-death penalty, especially when you look at the brokenness of our system. I would love to see some statistics about the number of pro-life Christians who are pro death penalty at the same time.

James_Diggs · 7 months ago

I have wondered lately if the hypocrisy many sense in the church concerning our limited definition of pro-life can also be tied to the myth of redemptive violence that so many Christians in our culture seem to embrace?

While most Christians can and do condemn the murder of this abortion doctor, this murder is actually not that inconsistent with believing in redemptive violence in other areas such as in war, torture, and the death penalty. In other words, what ground do Christians who embrace the myth of redemptive violence have in condemning a man that believed that his murdering this abortion doctor saved lives?

How can any view that ever embraces the idea of redemptive violence truly be pro-life?

Just thinking out loud here. But these are the questions we must stop ignoring if we truly value life more than just thinking it is enough to be politically ant-abortion.

brad · 7 months ago

james,

honestly one of the more refreshing comments here in a while for me. thanks for steering my thought process in this direction. i'll chew on this for awhile.

brad

Monte_Asbury · 7 months ago

James, well said. A friend of mine observed that the theme of nearly every crime show on television is that when the right people show up with the right firepower, everything is made well. We Americans, apparently, believe killing works.
I wonder if that is a challenge to us to choose which kingdom we will trust: that of this world, that really does believe violence can fix things, or the Kingdom of God, which loves its enemies, and finds violence merely further evil that exchanges one conflict for another.

mrdcbrush · 7 months ago

When will Christians begin to open their homes to "dangerous" babies through adoption? I say dangerous, because that is how children of drug addicted, poverty stricken, abused individuals are classified from their conception by society. Where are the Christian's looking to adopt not only the existing children that are born into this category, let alone the thousands more a year that will come as a result of a reduction in abortion?

Abortion existed early in our existence, even at the time of Christ it was a practice carried out in Roman society. This is not a new issue. I say that because this is not a 'new' or 'unique' problem that has all of a sudden popped up because of Roe v. Wade. It has been practiced, and will be practiced, regardless of legal precedent. The laws of men can only shape an individual insofar as the person agrees the wages for violating the law outweigh the chance of being caught. What we need is the love of the Almighty God which can mold the hearts of men. That love can only be modeled by his incarnate word, and as the body of Christ we have not shown that deep kind of love well.

Greg Arthur · 7 months ago

David,

I think you are touching on an important part of this whole debate. If we are seriously pro-life, Christians should practice adoption and orphan in incredible numbers. Obviously the ethics of caring for orphans and widows goes deep to the heart of God and any talk about care for the unborn has to equaled with care the for already born and alone.

I know of a couple of churches that have specifically targeted the foster care system and adoption as one of their main missional focuses and it has produced amazing stories. Those churches are few and far between, however. Such a huge issue and it goes straight to our understanding of the heart of God.

Pastor Steven · 7 months ago

Even though I would never advocated the murder of any person, let us not forget that would this LATE TERM ABORTINIST did for a living was indeed MURDER. May God have mercy on his soul, I would hate to be in his shoes when he stands before God.

Peace,

Steven

Pastor Steven · 7 months ago

I would also like to add that I think that we should value all human life and yes even the death penalty should be repelled as well as roe vs. wade. Sorry I meant to write 'what' not would in my last comment.

Peace,

Steven

marsha brockman · 7 months ago

Excellent thoughts. Being prolife is more than waving a sign at television cameras.

Phule77 · 7 months ago

I wonder if it comes out of the rationalization that many Christians have for the behaviour of God, as they've had it explained, in the OT, as well as the promised judgment, and the likely end of roughly 70% of humanity consigned to an eternity burning in hell.

Kelly Zerphy · 7 months ago

Thank you for your post. I was wondering when someone was going to touch on being a part of the solution. As a Christian, I MUST be prepared to be part of the solution. I ride by an Abortion Clinic every morning on my way to work. There are Catholic protesters “praying” outside of the clinic with signs and posters of aborted fetuses. I stopped one morning being so upset by this and asked someone why they were holding these disturbing pictures and signs in front of the clinic? What were they doing to actually be involved in the lives of the women that were going into the clinic for an abortion? The gentlemen really couldn’t answer my question and became defensive.

My husband always says that if we are going to live our lives as Christians, we must be willing to be part of the solution. For us last year, that involved moving a teenage mother, her child and the grandmother into our small home for almost 8 months. I was part of the birth of the little boy that this teenage mother had considered aborting and/or giving away. She did not give him away or abort him and they now have their own place and are doing significantly better. That was just one way we were being part of the solution.

You know what I found? That LOVE, lived out in it’s true definition, is the only way to prevent abortions and women having to go through such a terrible ordeal. It’s only love that says no matter what, God loves you, no matter what, His Grace is sufficient for you. That God did not forsake you and is still reaching for you if you will only just lift a finger in his direction, he will meet you.

I really believe that instead of being radical out loud in the public eye, maybe we should try to live out love and acceptance and grace radically with the people that we come in contact with. Building relationships that aren’t fake, but authentic. Until women believe that the church is a safe place to come for their problems, abortions will continue. Abortion and sin only are overcome ONE PERSON AT A TIME; and that takes work on our parts. To show that Christ is safe and has all the answers to our problems. And by not screaming at them radical comments and waiving radical signs that just push them away. But showing them the radical love that only Christ can offer.

Greg Arthur · 7 months ago

Kelly,

Thanks for your powerful testimony. Would it be that there are more with your courage and openness.

Pastor Steven · 7 months ago

I know stories of many women who thought twice about having an abortion because of people praying and talking to women at abortion mills. They were so thankful that those radicals were there that day. Because now they have a wonderful baby who they love with all their heart. Many women like that are pro-life and are some of the same ones standing and praying outside abortion mills. Lets stop showing disturbing pictures of staring children and war, so we do not have to think about them anymore either. I hear what your saying but please, killing babies in the third trimester. God help us, when does it stop, should we not be outraged.

Peace,

Steven

Kelly Zerphy · 7 months ago

Thank you Pastor Steven. I told my husband I posted on this topic and all he could say was "oh boy". That is because I am so passionate about this topic. As with any issue, there are both good sides and bad sides to each opinion and outlook. I do not have the answers, only my life's personal experience. I praise God everytime I hear that someone has turned away from a sinful and painful decision because I know that God's grace went a head of them. I also believe that the people who picket have the right heart condition, but perhaps the wrong delivery? I believe that we should grieve as Jesus grieves, love as Jesus loves and walk as Jesus walks. Late term abortions are just unthinkable, horrible, horrible things and I know that God grieves them.
I certainly don't think that we should hide the terrible sins of the world, I just believe that we should be gentle in our approach always, always, always leaning on the side of Grace. (which believe me I have to practice over and over and over and over...)
We need the divine power of the Holy Spirit to lean on the side of Grace. I believe that John Wesley summed this up pretty well - "Loving God. Love is such an easy word to say and such a hard thing to do. Ultimately love shows itself not by declarations of affection but by the service we render to the one we profess to love, especially service that inconveniences us or that calls for sacrifice. What is true in expressons of human love is equally true of our love for God. Jesus put the matter quite simply: If we love him, we will keep his commandments (John 14:15). This is the kind of practical Christianity that characterizes the Wesleyan tradition at its best." The Wesley Study Bible NRSV.
I work with women all the time who were or are prostitutes and drug addicts. And believe me, the first place that these women look is not to the church. So, it's my responsibilty to show them that I AM THE WHORE AT JESUS FEET. And then to show them the unconditional and practical love that "characterizes the Wesleyan tradition at its best".
It is only through Grace...
Shalom,
Kelly

Pastor Steven · 7 months ago

Thanks for your response Kelly, I hear your hearts desire to help those who are hurting and wounded, whether those wounds be self inflicted or not. Thanks be to God that LOVE does cover a multitude of sins and that PERFECT LOVE cast out fear. There is forgiveness and healing after abortion. I know women who have had abortions and have always grieved the lose, after being told it was no big deal by abortionist. I know our local CPC does a great job ministering to women that have had abortions. The Father is waiting for them with arms open wide, can we do any less.

Peace,

Steven

marsha brockman · 7 months ago

The missional life involving care for orphans and women in hard pregnancy situations begins when we see the unborn as a child, not a fetus. Do we really see that? Although we give lip service to the pro life side, I think many in the church still see the unborn as a bunch of cells, not a living being.

Monte_Asbury · 7 months ago

Beautiful, Kelly.

Monte_Asbury · 7 months ago

Consider this comment from a former patient of Dr. Tiller:

Waddington: I think those who are anti-abortion have been very successful in painting the picture of who I am and who other women are who have late abortions. And it kind of ticks me off because it’s not accurate. I mean, supposedly I’m just a person who woke up one day and had a back pain or a leg cramp and decided to have an abortion. And that definitely wasn’t the case. This was a pregnancy that was planned. A pregnancy that was wanted and loved. And it was tantamount to having a loved one on life support and making that decision whether to end the life support or not.

That was a new view on late-term abortion for me. Have we even entertained the idea that these folks might not be monsters at all?

Pastor Steven · 7 months ago

Tiller is no doctor, and that statement does nothing for me, because ending a pregnancy in the killing of a UNBORN CHILD is wrong. It is not a natural death, it's the killing of the child, WAKE-UP. Their not monsters, there just very confused people who are taken advantage of by abortionist.

Peace,

Steven

Monte_Asbury · 7 months ago

Really? Are you likewise of the opinion that life-support should always be continued forever, no matter what?

Pastor Steven · 7 months ago

Your talking about two related but different things. Letting a 100 year old man die a natural death is far different then sticking a surgical instrument into the back of a babies skull into the brain and worse. Life-support and abortion are not the same things, I'm not buying that for a second brother.

Peace,

Steven

Jesus Reyes · 7 months ago

There was no brain to stick a needle in. Waddington's fetus did not have a brain or a skull. If anyone has any explaining to do on this horror that would be God himself. Tiller was just cleaning up after His mess

James_Diggs · 7 months ago

Steven,

Actually that statement makes sense in light of a specific case I am aware of. I don't know why people think late term abortions are abortions of convenience; they are done when things have gone horribly wrong. I knew a woman who had one, and she wanted the baby just like Dr. Tillers statement. An example of a case could be that it is found out that the child has terminal birth defect, and can not live outside the womb, and the pregnancy has become a health risk for the mother. I don't know all the medical details to say definitively what all the options were, but neither do those who want to make blanket policies against procedures just because they sounds so monstrous on the surface without taking the time to find out what is really going on.

I actually think our policy banning these particular abortions has the opposite effect of what we should want as pro-lifers. If anything, it strengthen the argument for those that say blanket legal policy is no way to navigate medical issues that require we pay attention to the nuances and details of each individual case. I am not saying that there should be no guiding policy, but bans do nothing but allow pro-lifers to to wash their hands of the issue while ignoring the complexities of all that is involved.

There is a reason why late term abortions are rare, because they involved complicated medical issues involving mothers who wanted their babies and planned on having them before something tragic changed the landscape of their pregnancies. Am I saying definitively that an abortion is the only answer? absolutely not, but pro-lifers politically are often so interested in just being "anti- abortion", that they ignore real life and death realities. I just rarely ever, EVER, hear someone who is pro-life give these mothers and doctors enough benefit of the doubt to even find out what the real issues are before they are giving advice about what kind of procedures can and can not be done.

Steven, you say they are not "monsters", but most pro-lifers do. You say they are "confused"; I am wondering then if you have somehow gotten all the medical information of each case and can sort through it in a way these mothers and doctors can not? Who is in the position to be least "confused" about the issue and circumstances; us or them?

Again, do not read this as blanket endorsement for abortion, or even being against policy that would reduce or even eliminate unnecessary abortions. But until (political) pro-lifers are willing to navigate the harsh realities that real life involves in order come up with good policy then though who argue for being pro-choice make a good point. Related to this, until we are willing to listen to some of the good points made on the other side of the argument we can never come up with good policy either.

I think it starts for us in understanding that being pro-life isn't as simple as just being anti-abortion. Yes, we can rightly argue the tragedy of the majority of abortions being abortions of convenience, but while we continue to brush off legitimate concerns in even a small amount of situations we will never make any ground on creating good policy.

So far the pro-life strategy has followed other political strategies of just gaining enough consensus to impose our will, and this rules out any listening to the other side. This will get no where, just like it has gotten nowhere and I desperately want a different and more effective strategy. If only the church would lead in this issue instead of being pawns of political partisanship.

Monte_Asbury · 7 months ago

James, excellent! The problem we have in dealing with abortion - that which keeps us from making progress - is angry absolutism. When we jump to the conclusion that abortion is "taking the easy way out" (as Focus on the Family began to say many years ago), or that every late-term abortion is brutal dismemberment of a perfectly viable baby, or that every abortion provider is a deceiver bent on raking in money by minimizing the consequences of abortion, we increase the passion of those who know these things are, more often than not, simply not so. We abandon truth for power. We become pawns of the kingdom of darkness. We despise, rather than love, those we suppose to be our enemies.

The Kingdom of God is far more demanding than that. It bids us put all our trust in the way of love.

Pastor Steven · 7 months ago

Point taken, but at the same time most abortions are preformed on perfectly healthy babies and I don't know anything about the Waddington case. Yes there may be cases where there is no other alternative, but that is not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about abortions preformed on health living babies.

Peace,

Steven

James_Diggs · 7 months ago

But Steven, I think that IS what we NEED to talk about if we really want to make a difference regarding this issue overall. We must be willing to wrestle with these cases as a reality. Just because they are statistically a much smaller percentage does not mean we can just dismiss them as irrelevant.

I think we would gain a lot of much needed credibility necessary to create policy that could require some sort of regulation of abortions if we were not so dismissive of these legitimate concerns even if they are in a small number of cases.

Some regulations and guidelines may be more effective than trying to criminalize the procedure outright. But it will take a lot of trust building for pro-choicers to believe that any regulation isn't just a step toward outright bans. We need to build that trust, and that starts by listening. And listening will also help create better policy.

Another thing that would help with credibility is to recognize how issues like poverty, health care and education also all play a bigger role in the issue than many pro-lifers want to deal with. Others have mentioned this here already, and I wanted to echo that concern.

Let me also say that I do not want to any way minimize the concern for the great many of abortions performed. I just think we need to keep our heads along with our hearts as we work to solve this.

Pastor Steven · 7 months ago

James, I'm more then willing to talk about the reality that there are at time no other alternatives, as rare as they might be. But at the same time I'm not willing to stop talking about all the needless taking of human life, whether it be abortion, war or the death penalty. I guess one of the reasons I'm so concerned is that I work with people with both physical and developmental disabilities. How could I ever choose to terminate one of their lives.

Peace,

Steven

Monte_Asbury · 7 months ago

Steven, what percentage of late-term abortions (the subject of the post) are perfectly healthy babies? Do you know? Or are the assumptions you make merely stereotypes created by pitchmen for political gain, as Waddington suggests?

Pastor Steven · 7 months ago

Monte, I do not know the latest statistics, but a few years back late term abortion (any abortion preformed after 21 weeks), averaged about 9000 a year and about 8500 of those babies could of lived outside the womb, most could of lived relatively normal lives. Why should we terminate babies with Downs or CP? I don't know anything about pitchmen or political gain I'm not running for anything. I do know that liberal politicians do a great job getting the pro-choice people work-up over so called abortion rights. We need a little compassion for the unborn brother.

Steven,

Steven

James_Diggs · 7 months ago

Steven,
I have also worked with adults with dd/mr issues and I could not agree more in regard to your point. I don't think we should stop talking about it, I just think we need to change how we talk about it.

Pastor Steven · 7 months ago

I think your right James, especially when we feel so passionate about it.

Peace,

Steven